Shooting a Super 8 Feature need some advice

[roxics]

Hello everyone. This is my first post here. It's kinda long but there are a few questions embedded if you could give me answers. Thanks.

This spring I am shooting a feature film(about 90 minutes) and i'm planning on experimenting with it. This is my second feature. The first was shot on miniDV. This new film I am planning to shoot is a serious movie and I want it to come out good, but I also want to try out some things and try to enhance my filmmaking skills.

I had planned to shoot the movie on digital video using my sony TRV900 in 16:9 mode. However then it occured to me that I should shoot the movie in super 8 as well. I perfer the look of film anyway. I had always wantedto shoot a feature on super 8 just to see how it would come out. I deceided this would be a good movie to try it out on.

The reason for shooting both formats is simple. I'm not that practiced with super 8 so the DV footage would be my backup. In other words if too much of the super 8 footage didn't turn out, then I could just dump it as a learning experience and edit the DV footage and use that as my final cut. However I'm hoping that's not the case.

The movie I'm shooting is a pyschological science fiction. It will have some action in it but not a ton of things that will require alot of special effects. I'm hoping to shoot the movie as cheap as possible using DV and kodak k40 film. I realise this is a slow film and I've only shot it twice in the past. Both times before I had owned a light meter or a decent camera. My experience was positive but not a complete enough test as they were just shots of me running around with my friends shooting. We grew up in the video age and wanted to see what we looked like on film. Plus there was no sound or proper lighting.

I own a couple super 8 cameras. My nicest one is a Bolex sound camera that works well and has all the basic functions like through the lens viewing and a manual aperture. However the camera only seems to shoot at 18fps and isn't crystal sync compatible. Now I'm planning on purchasing a used camera that is capable of having a crystal sync motor attached by "The Film Group." One that is on their list. Any suggestions? On top of the crystal sync add on ability, I need something that can do slow motion and fast motion and has through the lens viewing, manual aperture and so forth. I am willing to buy a second camera for just my fast and slow motion shots as they don't need to be crystal sync. The fast and slow motion shots are one of my reasons for wanting to shoot on film.

The reason I am planning on using kodak k40 is because of price and it's grain structure. I had thought about using pro8mm from super8sound.com but the prices are too high for this low to no budget feature of mine. Plus they are close enough to 16mm prices that I would just shoot that if I had that kind of money.

My last experience with super 8 was a year ago when I had shot tri-x super 8 and wasn't impressed at all by it's graininess. My first short film was shot on tri-x 16mm so I was perhaps expecting a similar result. I really didn't think about how the difference in frame sizes would result in a grainier look. This is why I am planing to stick with k40 so I can get the smallest grain possible.

My question is where do you get the best prices on k40 and where is the best prices for processing and telecine? The telecine needs to be professional level not a local photo store that does cheap trasfers. I myself used to do that at a local photo store. However the prices need to resonable.

My audio is going to be recorded using my sharp brand portable minidisc recorder. My mic is a Audio-Technica 835b short shotgun that will be run through a mixer and out to the video camera for the video shots and out to the minidisc for the super 8 shots. The audio for the super 8 shots will be synced in my NLE setup(premiere 6.)

My super 8 footage needs to be telecined to miniDV for editing on my PC with Premiere 6. However an initial digibeta transfer is fine as I can have it transfered to miniDV at a video transfer house. My final cut will be on miniDV and DVD with the film and perhaps digibeta as backup for future transfers.

So if you missed my questions here they are:

Where can I get good prices on kodak k40 film? Can I get them for as low as $10 a roll?

Where is a good lab that will process and telecine to minDV(or digibeta)low cost?

What is a good camera on The Film Groups' page that can be rigged for crystal sync? As in does anyone have personal experience with any of them?

Will all of this work as planned according to what I've told you?

Any suggestions beyond what I've said? Remember I'm not completely new to film or filmmaking, I'm just ill practiced as I normally shoot video. however I am not ill practiced in still photography where I shoot fuji velvia all the time.

thanks




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www.scapefilms.com

[#Pedro]

Hi Roxics,
I don?t know what film resources you have in the USA, but my impression is, that the prices there are higher than in Europe. For a 90 min feature it would be worth to order the film stock at the cheapest place. Here in Germany the usual price is about $10 including processing, f.e. at http://www.wittner-kinotechnik.de/ .

For shooting with crystal speed control at 24 fps and some intermixed silent szenes with slow and fast motion, one camera is sufficient. I?m thinking of a 6008 or 7008 or 9008 pro model from Beaulieu, which has a crystal locked drive from factory and can be switched to any framerate 1/4/9/18/24/25/36/80 fps. The 7008 and 9008 are equiped with a ground glass viewfinder, which allow the most exact controling of focus available in S8. And that?s what is most important for a good picture quality. With split image viewfinders you always have to move the camera?s centre to the actor?s face, loosing the selected frame, and look for a contrasty line to set the focus. Ground glass is much easyer.

For two system sound without pulse or pilot tone via cable, don?t forget the clapboard or an electronic szene marker for each dialouge szene. If not, editing will become very hard.

As I am not the video transfer expert (I like real film screenings more), I?m shure the other guys here will comment the rest of your questions.

Pedro

[pcg]

I agree with Nigel. Here in the States the cheapest supplier for film is Kodak itself. You may have to buy rolls in increments of 5, but the price runs about $10.

You can order directly off the website (www.kodak.com) where you'll find their Super 8 section...

/Pat

[Nigel]

Hello--

I agree with Pedro in the cameras. I have a Beaulieu and I love it.

As for the film go straight to Kodak. They will sell direct to you. If you are a student they give a 20% discount too.

I use CinePost in Atlanta www.posthouse.com
they do full RANK transfers for I think 225.00$ per hour. However, I would go to BetaSP or some other professional format. I really hate MiniDV for anything and everything.

Good Luck

[roxics]

Thanks everyone for you input. Actually what do you all think of the Beaulieu 4008ZM? I really don't have the money for anything more expense. Perhaps a nice canon model though I can't seem to find any for sale.

I will be doing some experimenting with 16mm as well. But this feature is on a shoe string budget so the cheaper I can get, the better. I the feature does't have alot of action or intense dialogue so a 2:1 shooting ratio is what I'm aiming for.

Also are you sure you can get k40 with processing for $10 from that German store? That seems very cheap. I am also rough on my Deutsch so that website wasn't the easiest to navigate. How would I go about ordering from them?

One last question. I went to the super8sound website and they have a camera called "the classic pro' I've never heard of this one before. It looks like a blue BEAULIEU 4008 but it doesn't say BEAULIEU anywhere in the text. Did Super8Sound buy out BEAULIEU or what? Thanks

[#Pedro]

Wittner is actually shipping world wide. You make your order or ask your questions concerning shipping and articles via email: [email protected], they claim to understand and response in English. They normally only deliver after your payment has arrived, and they don?t work with credit cards, only with international money transfer.

Here is the K40 (pack with 10 items) from their catalouge, ordering number 1074. DM 209 is about $100, I believe.

Pedro


Kodachrome 40 S8mm
10-er-Pack nur DM 209,- (EUR 106,86)

KODAK Kodachrome 40 - S8mm-Kassette, 15m. Preis incl. Entwicklung durch Kodak.
Kunstlicht (3400K) ohne Filter ISO 40/17, Tageslicht mit Filter Wratten Nr.85 ISO 25/15

Fabrikfrische Ware, haltbar bis 04/2003 !
Best. Nr. 1074 - (106,86 EUR) 209,00 DEM

[David17]

You can go to www.filmmaterial.com too. The same prices as at Wittner-Kinotechnik ($88 per 10 cartridges!), but the website is in English too. The site is from the same company. Success!

David

[David17]

Select "Sonderangebote" to see the discount price for the Super8 10 cartridges for $88. The Index is in German, actually, but the desciptions are in English too.

David

[Alex]

2-1 shooting ratios are a myth...so are 3-1 and 4-1 shooting ratios...here's why...

First of all, you'll probably do a master shot....but inevitably, an actor may blow a line...

....or simply, just the act of saying Camera!...camera rolling....we have speed....Sound!....sound rolling, we have speed.....Scene! 2a, he smiles....and..... Action!....(actors wait a beat)....that alone can take 7-15 seconds! (As Mattias points out a few posts later, start the sound BEFORE the camera...my error)

If your shot is 30 seconds long...and you add a second or two after actors finish....there is a pause...then cut...then the camera cuts....add another 2-5 seconds.....you potentially have 9-20 seconds EXTRA per shot!

If your scene is only 20 seconds to begin with.....up to an additional 100% of the camera run time was simply identifying and post roll.......

So after your first take of every scene...you are already operating at a 2-1 ratio!

What if you didn't like the take!

Then you have reverse angles and medium shots and close-ups.....

In general....the bare minimum you'll ever get away with is 5-1....but in reality....EXPECT anywhere from a 10-1 to 20-1 ratio.

-Alex



[This message has been edited by Alex (edited March 15, 2001).]

[mattias]

i don't agree 3-1 shooting ratios are a myth (2-1 seems unlikely though), since i've managed them myself on a few productions.

first of all, you don't have to shoot coverage for a lot of scenes, like the establishing of locations. this means at least 10% of the film can be shot nearly on a 1-1 ratio.

second of all, you don't have to shoot full masters if you just plan ahead a little. storyboards and safety cutaways are your tools. and the close ups definately don't have to run for the duration of the scene.

and third of all you definately don't have to roll the camera until you're ready to say action. just slate the audio first, then hold the slate up, start the camera, mark and go. 3 seconds at the most.

and perhaps most importantly, you shouldn't even consider shooting more than two takes of any angle, or you're spending too much time anyway. if you're not happy with the entire performance, it's better to shoot a cutaway or something and worry about it in post. remember that for a low budget film, time is never something you have. even if the actors are your best friends, they will want to quit after a weeks of 12 hour days. keeping productions running for several months like they do in hollywood simply isn't an option.

i've made 6 short films on 16 mm, not one of them with a higher ratio than 4-1, and a few silent super 8 films with even lower ratios. i could never afford a 10-1 ratio shooting film, and frankly i think i would go crazy if i didn't treat my video shoots the same way. higher ratios for fiction is just an excuse for not doing your home work.